BREAKING NEWS: Future American Christian Students Uncertain As Obama Signs Stimulus Plan

Tuesday, February 17, 2009 | Tag Cloud

By Stefan J. Bos, Worthy News Chief International Correspondent

COLORADO, USA (Worthy News)-- Devoted Christian students across the United States faced uncertainty Tuesday, February 17, as President Barack Obama signed into law the nation's biggest ever economic stimulus plan which bans religious worship or instruction in university and college facilities that receive state funds for renovations.

"No funds awarded under this section may be used for – (3) modernization, renovation, or repair of facilities – (A) used for sectarian instruction or religious worship; or (B) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission," a part of the plan says.

One of the effects will be to bar Bible studies and worship meetings by Christian and other religious student groups in facilities that have undergone repairs or modernization work underwritten by stimulus funds, according to religious liberty advocates.

The measure is part of the almost $800 billion in government spending and tax cuts that Obama says are designed to get America's economy back on track. However critics describe the plan as anti-religious. “The dust is settling on the “bipartisan” stimulus bill and one thing is clear: it is anti-religious,” said former presidential candidate Mike Huckabee, who is also an ordained Baptist pastor.

STRIKING PROVISION

"During debate, Senator Jim DeMint offered an amendment to strike the provision from the bill but it failed 43-54, with Democrats voting overwhelmingly for this blatantly anti-religious provision," Huckabee wrote on his Website and in an e-mail to supporters, monitored by Worthy News.

"Why would Democrats add this provision into a spending bill that they say is "urgently needed" to help our economy?" he added. Supporters of the provision say it guarantees the separation of church and state and ensures that tax payers dollars are not used for religion.

However the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) said in published remarks that it would challenge the provision in federal court as it allegedly encourages discrimination.

"This is an unacceptable provision that clearly discriminates against religious organizations that have a legal right to use those facilities," ACLJ chief counsel Jay Sekulow said in a written statement. "This is not what 'economic stimulus' is about. We know that the American people don't want their tax dollars used for discriminatory measures."

OBAMA "REORGANIZING"

It came shortly after Obama already signed an executive "reorganizing" the White House Office on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships to be used only for "secular purposes", not evangelism. Yet despite controversies, Obama seemed pleased when signing the stimulus plan outside of Washington, in the Western city of Denver, Colorado on Tuesday, February 17.

Denver hosted the 2008 Democratic National Convention, at which Obama received his party's presidential nomination. The majority of Colorado voters supported Obama in the November election, after several elections in which Republicans won the state.

"I do not want to pretend that today marks the end of our economic problems nor does it constitute all of what we are going to have to do to turn our economy around," he said at the signing ceremony. "But today does mark the beginning of the end."

Colorado also has a reputation for supporting businesses that produce and support so-called "clean energy".

HAPPY COMPANY

Before President Obama signed the legislation, Blake Jones, the president of the Colorado-based Namaste Solar company, which makes solar energy equipment, said the stimulus plan will help his company and many others.

"Our trade association - the Solar Energy Industries Association - estimates that as a direct result of this stimulus bill, U.S. solar companies will create 69,000 good-paying jobs this year, and almost double that number over the next two years," he added.

Overall, the Obama administration claims the plan will create or save millions of jobs, cut taxes for 95 percent of working Americans and inject new money into efforts to reform education, health care, and rebuild infrastructure.

Others aren't so sure. They include United States Representative Tom Price (R-Roswell) who became somewhat of a television celebrity last week when smashing the 1,000 plus pages of the bill and waving what looked to be a small, dead ball of fur on the floor of the U.S. House. The prop was reportedly from a pet store.

EXPENSIVE MICE

“What’s in it? Have you read it?” he said of the $787 million stimulus bill. “We found 30 million for mice. Got 30 million for mice. You can’t be serious. What a joke. $30 million for mice. Does that create jobs?”

The economic stimulus plan passed both houses of Congress, with all majority Democrats supporting the measure and nearly all Republicans voting against it. Minority-party lawmakers have warned the plan is too costly and wasteful, and will not work.

On Wednesday, February 18, Obama was to visit the Southwestern state of Arizona to introduce a program he said would help millions of homeowners avoid mortgage foreclosures. Several economists and politicians agree that the U.S. financial crisis began with bad loans in the home mortgage industry.

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25 thoughts on “BREAKING NEWS: Future American Christian Students Uncertain As Obama Signs Stimulus Plan”

  1. When Taxpayer Dollars Are Used To Separate Americans From Their Worship Of The Living God, It Is Suspect.

    "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." Romans 8:15

    Does Any Informed Person Really Believe Governments Can Change The Born-Again Back?

    "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." Ezekiel 36:26

    Not Even Death

    "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    Romans 8:38-39

    Hallelujah!

  2. I think this was a very informative article, much unlike the kind you see on the conservative newsites. You would think they would take the kind of time this gentleman does. I really don't know what to think about the stimulus, to tell you the truth. There are some things in there that make a lot of sense. I am all for the "Buy American" provision when it comes to American Steel. I have seen the ill effects of iron mining towns shut down; such as drugs, alcohol, unemployment, poverty. God has blessed us with the ore, its senseless to be bullied into buying steel from other nations to rebuild our infrastructures. I am all for investing in companies that will help us be less dependant on the traditional kinds; such as solar and wind power. I know that there are already states that have invested in solar and wind. I'm in favor of investing in our auto industry. American automakers need to make more fuel efficient and better vehicles without compromising safety. I believe in investing in America. All of this brings jobs back into our homeland. Jobs restore dignity. We've outsourced too much; its gotten out of hand. I am a conservative who has traveled across the country and has seen the ill effects of too much outsourcing. Corporations should have a commitment to their homeland. Its unpatriotic that they are all about themselves, and give little or nothing back to the land that gives them all their rights. There is a famous American author of morals named Theodore Geisel, who wrote about a turtle who wanted to climb higher and higher, to where he kept calling for more and more turtles to lift him up. Finally, the turtle on the bottom named Mac could no longer hold him up; he coughed. All the turtles came tumbling down into the pond, with Yertle falling the hardest. The poorest of our country has coughed. If those who had been blessed had been more responsible with what they had, and cared more for those who didn't have instead of being "all about me", there would be no economic crisis, and no huge stimulus package. Sure we can ease our consciences by saying it was merely poor lending practices that caused all the foreclosures. But what about all those who were layed off or lost their jobs because their patriotic boss decided to move across the ocean? Lets pretend I didn't write that last sentence. What about all those who couldn't make their dollar stretch any further. They had to chose between heating their homes or paying their mortgage. Tell yourself they don't exist and then go to church and sing praises.

    The economic package is there because those entrusted with much often did not do the right thing. They were the ones with the true "entitlement" mentality. They thought that they were entitled to their riches, and that it was merely tough luck for the poor.

    As for the students on campus? I think we need to see how it is enforced, first. I think its all in the interpretation, right now. Lets see how far the campus' take their individual interpretations, then the ACLJ can deal with it more effectively.Lets see how "nazi-ish" the colleges and universities become, first. It may be a little early to squawk about it in advance. We need to avoid duplicity. One minute we are against the stimulus package, then the next minute we are saying, but I want my part of the pie. It could appear that way to the secular world. We need to walk in faith in this one.

    I don't know if in the days to come if Christian conservatives want to ally themselves with secular loud mouth conservative types. We did that in the nineties and, I think it brought us here to this point. I noticed that some talk-radio personalities are just so obnoxious with how they are "hell-bent" on dogging on the President. After a while its hard to take them seriously. I choose to pray for my President, rather than complain about him.

    • I think the majority of people need to wake up, only then will they see Pres. Barack Obama for what he really is... a socialist who will destroy this country.

    • Well M. all I can say is nice try, but BALONEY is BALONEY, no matter how you slice it. Although I must say you served it up well. The only two things I can agree with you on, are the author's professionalism, and corporate greed like that's anything new. Because quite frankly there was just as much personal greed, as in people that hungered for more home than they could afford, and homes they just plain couldn't afford and were financed to buy, because some well meaning, bleeding heart told them everyone DESERVES a home of their own, as opposed to everyone deserves an OPPORTUNITY to own a home. We have the massive forclosure situation we have now, because liberal Democrats forced banks to make bad loans based on every American's constitutional right (BALONEY) to own a home, whether they can afford it or not. That's called private sector greed, with great political representation, in the Democratic party.

      As far as un-patriotic corporate America moving overseas to make a killing? More hogwash. Once you understand that business is in business to make money, and that most all of the industries you mention are in dire straits due to the union representation of, "private sector" greed, manifested in a membership, that will always be hungry for more, only then will you begin to grasp it's a two way street. The labor union will continue to indoctrinate it's membership with: "the MAN is getting rich of the backs of the workers" and, the company will concede as long as it can turn a profit, until it can no longer compete in it's market. At which point your options become limited to: either relocate overseas to regain the competitive edge in a reasonable labor market, or close the doors and call it quits. As a potential stockholder with your IRA's tied into the companies continued existance, what would YOU prefer M. it's YOUR money? You know whats coming don't you? That means that MUCH of corporate greed really trickles down to individual private sector little guy greed, with IRA's, money market funds, etc. You know M. little guys like you, and me trying to put kids through college, or span the gap between what social security will provide and what we will need to buy needed medication, or eat on.

      As far as praying for our president goes. What am I supposed to pray for, that a wicked man succeed? NOT! I will oppose him and his policies, until he either gets saved (which is all I can pray for) and has a genuine change of heart, or he is removed from office. I'm not much for playing nice, nice, at the expense of the truth, which some people have absolutely no problem with playing fast, and loose with. I'll call a spade a spade. YES, GREED= SIN is the reason why America is where it is now, but the answer is NOT to elect a president, and his party that CHAMPION sin WHOLESALE, in the interst of filling their pockets first, and tossing a few pennies to the rest of us, in the name of the poor. I sincerely doubt in God's economy it's about the money, and neither should it be in ours.

      AS far as Christian universities, and Christian churches go, the answer is simply. COME OUT FROM THEM! Don't take their money, you don't need it. Our job is to evangelize the lost, we're not in the REAL ESTATE business. If you take government money sooner or later their going to get around to telling you how your going to spend it. EXERCISE seperation of church, and state. Abandon 501C, and kick your slice of the stimulus pie to the curb, OR don't you trust the Lord to supply what His Church needs in an abundance?

      It all sounds good M. if you buy the candy their selling you, but personally I've been in the world long enough to recognize BALONEY when I hear it.

      • "Our job is to evangelize the lost, we’re not in the REAL ESTATE business"

        Amen Brother Amen!

        "As far as praying for our president goes. What am I supposed to pray for"

        lol Brother Joe. You Are Too Much!

        I Don't Think Any Believer Should Demand You Must Pray For This Or For That.
        The Holy Ghost Knows Better Than Any Of Us What We Ought To Pay For And He Has Eventually (I'm Stubborn Sometimes)) Moved Me Where He Wants Me.
        That Said, God Did Take Me To School On My Prayers For The Leaders Of The USA.

        I Was Raised About Forty Miles North Of You In The Little Town Of Zion And Was Taught As A Child To Pray For God's Hand Upon All Our Political Leaders. My Dad Even Went So Far As To Allowed Me To Work In General Eisenhower's (I Like Ike!)1952 Presidential Campaign Against Adlai Stevenson.

        I Mostly Ignored The Praying For The Sitting President Part Of My Upbringing Until In The Middle Of My Naval Service My Skipper John F. Kennedy Was Assassinated By A Communist. Especially Because He Was My Commander-In-Chief, Kennedy's Death Really Broke My Young Sailor's Heart. This Brought To An Abrupt Stop Any Laziness On My Part In Praying For Any President Whatever My Likes Or Dislikes.

        I Still Did Not Apply My Prayers To Candidates Running For President Until As He Celebrated His Victory In The California Primary An Islamic Assassin Murdered Robert Kennedy (For The Kennedy's Support Of Israel).
        Now I Pray For All Folk Running And For Their Families.

        Candidate Obama Was Especially In My Prayers Over These Last Two Years Because Of The Claims Of Ownership Some Islamics Make On Barack Because Of His Supposed "Birth Religion".

        So I Praise God For His Protection Over This Young Man And His Dear Family.

        I Pray The LORD Will Guild Him And The Rest Of Us To Honor The Convent The LORD Made With Israel And The Lands.
        I Pray We Would Honor And Protect The Child Forming In The Mother's Womb.
        I Pray The Gospel Will Freely Go Forth Within And Without The USA.
        I Pray We As A Nation Praise And Honor The Name Of Yeshua.

        I Know All Nations Carrying The Eagle Standard Have Come Against Israel And I Have No Doubt The USA Will Due So But Still I Pray.
        Oh Mighty God Turn The USA To Honor The God Of Abraham, Issac And Jacob.
        Move Us To Support Israel Against The Killers Surrounding And Hounding Her.
        LORD Move Us To Pray For The Peace Of Jerusalem.
        Thank You For Your Faithfulness.

        "Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep." Psalms 121:4

        Hallelujah!

        Joe, Thanks For Reading
        Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING
        Love, Joe

      • I know exactly where Zion is Joe, It's east on Rt.173 / Rosencran Rd, near Illinois State Beach, and Great Lakes naval base. Sounds like you were blessed to grow up in a Christian home, praise God. I used to be V.P. of a men's club years ago that owned a country club in Wimont Wisc. so I frequently had cause to exit Rt. 173 W. passing through neighboring Antioch Il. to get there. I remember Zion from the reactor visible from the highway.

        I was born and raised in the bowels of Chicago's south side Englewood neighborhood. I went to Harper H.S. where I was affectionately known as the crazy white boy, blonde hair, blue eyes, a baby faced bad boy. I joined the military at 17 after being expelled for truancy among other things, and served in royal Richard's Air Force for the last year of the Vietnam conflict. It was a way to escape, the hood where my friends were dying wholesale in gunfights, and drug overdoses, and it pandered to this young man's quest for adventure, in guts, and glory.

        Upon discharge I spent the next fifteen years going through 3 wives, that bore me three children, always replacing the last with a younger model. After my third divorce I spent the next twelve years living, hard, fast, and single, a steady diet of alcohol, guns, motorcycles, fast cars, and fast women. It wasn't until I was 44 yrs. old that I came to the end of myself, and discovered the only thing that could fill the hole in my heart was God Himself, in the person of His Son Jesus Christ.

        Born again at 44 I was immediately discipled, for a year, and began doing street ministry in Chicago's Humboldt park neighborhood. By years end I found myself head of street ministry, and served 4 yrs. under our Saviors command out in the trenches of Chicago's most dangerous nieghborhoods. I met my present wife Nancy inadvertantly through this ministry, and having stepped down from leadership and am preparing for, and am awaiting re-assignment.

        I agree with you Joe regarding prayer. Only the Holy Spirit can truly prompt us to pray specifically. It seems to me from the comments you leave, your ministry IS prayer, and a Powerful mnistry prayer IS. I certainly don't have the same burdens you do, and I'm sure you don't have mine either.

        Ever since Obama has taken office, our Pastor has been pushing prayer for our president, and frankly, all I can do regarding prayer for Obama is pray he either get saved, or he and his party be removed from office ASAP. I pray for the leadership of America like I'd pray for the collapse of communism.

        I find it next to impossible to pray for wisdom of America's leadership, understanding that wisdom not knowledge, is power. If knowledge is truth, and truth is God's word, which is spirtually discerned through the Holy Spirit, how can those not born again know the Truth they need to be empowered with the wisdom, that is the application of Truth in our circumstances, and relationships? Wisdom is power in that it is knowledge applied. I know a great many educated people that possess vast amounts of knowledge, and without a lick of widom to apply that knowledge to their circumstances, and or relationships, lead miserable failed lives. In other words I find it impossible to pray for wisdom for someone that doesn't possess the Truth. The Truth, the Way, and the Life, need to come before wisdom through prayer.

        With love in our Lord brother Joe,
        brother Joe

  3. "One of the effects will be to bar Bible studies and worship meetings by Christian and other religious student groups in facilities that have undergone repairs or modernization work underwritten by stimulus funds, according to religious liberty advocates."

    I don't think it will be as bad as all that. If you look at the bill carefully, it does not say any kind of meetings will be barred anywhere. Rather, it says the FUNDS re banned from being used to repair facilities that are PRIMARILY used already for religious purposes. In other words, the funds cannot be used for the repair of such things as college chapels:

    "No FUNDS awarded under this section may be used for – (3) modernization, renovation, or repair of facilities – (A) used for sectarian instruction or religious worship; or (B) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission,"

    To my reading, (A) refers to facilities that are totally used for religious instruction or worship and (B) adds that, even if they are only primarily used for religious purposes, they still cannot use these funds for renovation. That does not mean they have to change their purpose or use at all. It just means those particular structures will have to find other funding sources, which they already have to do anyway because, until now, the bailout funds did not exist. They have never had access to bailout funds; so, the bill is stipulating that they will never have what they never have had. The main thing is that buildings that are currently used only occasionally for religious worship can still obtain funds from the bailout for renovation. It is only if the building's primary purpose is religion that it is barred (not from its purpose) but from using these funds.

    "It came shortly after Obama already signed an executive 'reorganizing' the White House Office on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships to be used only for 'secular purposes', not evangelism."

    Which is exactly as it should be. Government should not be in the evangelism business. Obama could have just killed the faith-based office altogether. After all, no other president than Bush ever had such an office. It would have been easy to end it. Instead, he merely clarified that any of the work of religious organizations that is supported by the government has to be outside of the direct advocacy of their religion. Government should not ever be advocating one religion over another. That is a basic American principle. So, he's right to make this clarification.

    What may be more important is that churches don't start lining up for government support. Historically, when they have done that, they have always become influenced in the end by government. It is not the churches' job to solve all the world's problems. It is the job of churches to use their parishioner's funds to spread the gospel and help people as the churches see fit. It is not their burden to help the government use its money wisely nor to rescue every homeless person. So, churches should not be in the business of using government money to accomplish such help. That's government's job. The churches are accountable for doing what they can with THEIR resources.

    • David,
      Thank you Brother for telling that in a way that I could understand. I was going crazy mad inside thinking he was already trying to smash the Christians, although I think he is anti christian, this bill isn't that bad. May God help us all in the next 4 years, IN JESUS NAME.

    • Excellent summary David. The bottom line is once churches or Christian universities begin to take government monies, whether it be called stimulus, or tax exemption the government will put strings upon how you will operate. It is, and has been very poor church policy, that the first thing a new church does is apply for tax exempt status. It's almost a given.

    • lol!
      Just Can't Get Away With Anything These Days!

      Praying The Light Of The Glorious Gospel Of Christ, Who Is The Image Of God, Will Shine Throughout These Lands.

      Glory!

  4. Well..I don't know about everyone else..but I have never had a good feeling about Obama being in office. And now, reading about how he is backing and approving anti-Christian moves (like taking religious worship out of colleges that receive state funding. He is separating church and state for good. I know God is not happy with alot of decisions the government is making. This all makes me feel so unsafe as an American citizen and makes me want to move to New Zealand or something.

  5. 2 Tim 3:12 - "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse..."

  6. At first glance it would seem like persecution but in application I think he's done us a big favor. I will explain. For over 8 years in my US city, of about 250,000 people, we have Messianics, and also Jewish Christians, have been openly discriminated against just in trying to bring in any materials from out of state through our public Library system. And that included the state University Library system too. Meanwhile, both the only public state University (vastly larger than any others) and the other local University once started by Methodists, decided that Muslims here were being treated without enough respect. So they both joined together and advertised a ton of Seminars on the main library's online page, linked to the U's pages, for 9 months of free advertizing. But after it was all over, and Risk Management for the city had to be involved, the information was finally given to us on how we could indeed put up a months worth of some kind of display on our faith, just as the rest get, maximum. Oh yeah, and since the University has not Religions Studies of any kind, no they did not want us to donate any materials, new or not to their libraries. I tried three times to get stuff on the shelves of local libraries. But they had a book or two by the founder of Jews for Jesus so why did I keep nagging them? Eight years and counting and still no one's ever asked me just what do I believe because they all "know it all" already. This would finally give those Christians who should be doing to save the kids from the truck loads of witchcraft materials stashed in college and University facilities grounds to do something good for a change. Most of us of have homes, rooms, or friends, not to mention whole Churches, we can worship in. What we need is some safe places for our kids to get educations.

  7. This just confirms all of our suspicions about Barak Hussein Obama. I thought he was anti-Christian, and an imposter, and within the first months of his administration it has already become clear that that is the case. He is not a uniter, or a bipartisan leader. He is a manipulative, anti-God, anti-American, corrupt bully!

    • There is a reason and a season for all things, and a time for every purpose under heaven. This is the time to be strong and take courage, and continue fighting for the noble cause as you have been doing for the past eight years. It is easy to be dismayed when the circumstances look so grim. Our nation has been on a downhill spiral for many years and the occurrences of the past few months are the results. We have been given a mandate; what are we going to do about it? II Chronicles 7:14 says, "If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves, pray and seek my face, then I will hear from heaven and I will forgive their sins and heal their land." Our land needs more committed people who will be steadfast and unmovable as watchmen on the wall, and pray for all leaders in this country everyday.

  8. David Haggith:

    " If you look at the bill carefully, it does not say any kind of meetings will be barred anywhere. Rather, it says the FUNDS re banned from being used to repair facilities that are PRIMARILY used already for religious purposes. In other words, the funds cannot be used for the repair of such things as college chapels:

    “No FUNDS awarded under this section may be used for – (3) modernization, renovation, or repair of facilities – (A) used for sectarian instruction or religious worship; or (B) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission,”

    To my reading, (A) refers to facilities that are totally used for religious instruction or worship and (B) adds that, even if they are only primarily used for religious purposes, they still cannot use these funds for renovation. That does not mean they have to change their purpose or use at all. It just means those particular structures will have to find other funding sources, ..."

    An interesting observation is made with this. BUT I have to question why religion is being treated like dung. Some school chapels are historic buildings (i.e. Annapolis Naval Academy chapel).

    As Christians, we should take the lesson of Nehemiah and Ezra to heart - the Lord was angry with the people for not rebuilding His Temple before the people rebuilt their homes. Now I know chapels are not the Temple, but they are symbols to a dedication to faith. The bill completely devalues these structures, and in doing so spit on the face of religious expression. It's subtle, and surrounded by "good language" - the not-in-the-Constitution expression of "separation between Church and State." But that is how lies are best swallowed, with little subtleties followed by bigger subtleties, and before you know it you find yourself where you thought you'd never be.

  9. I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED OBAMA WAS A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN AND HE SURE IS SHOWING HIS TRUE COLORS BECAUSE SOMEONE THAT TRULY HAD A EXPRIENCE WITH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WOULD NOT OBJECT TO ANY ONE WORSHIPING OF THE LORD OR HAVING BIBLE STUDIES . SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG HERE , I WONDER WHAT ALL THE CHRISTIANS WHO VOTED HIM ARE THINKING NOW , BECAUSE UNLESS HE HAS AN ENCOUNTER WITH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, IT IS GOING TO GET ALOT WORSE FOR ANY CHRISTIAN , I BELIEVE WE WILL SEE SUCH PERSECUTION AS THIS WORLD HAS NOT SEEN , SINCE BEFORE JESUS , DURING THE TIME OF JESUS AND AFTER HIS DEATH , GOD HELP US ALL .

  10. I'm only going to clue parents/students on this once, now. Home Schooling. And not just in any State. Alaska. The State of Alaska will let parents home school their own children in The Way, almost any way actually they desire. It's wide open. There are excellant correspondence schools which are nationally accredited (if that's your problem with HS). In many, many, cases the State of Alaska will pay for it too. No joke.
    Also, best take a good look at that word "church." When the followers of Jesus, the Christ, aka Yshua HaMashiach, congregate for fellowship, or to worship Him Who has created all things, or to teach themselves, or their children....it was not called a "Church" in the Bible or bible times. Are you really willing to die for a Roman Catholic construct? None of us has to call our gatherings a "church." I can not yet find out how many different terms originally were written/used (in Greek, or in Hebrew, or Aramaic, whatever). We CAN call them congregations, shuls, havurat, fellowships, messianic synagogues, etc. But die for "a Church," nope. I see no reason to do that, and abundant reasons (from our abusers) not to defend a "church." Maybe a group of believers (that could be Christians, Messianics, Believers...) The body of Jesus Christ on this earth, right now, consists of more than one dimension, it's more than those "churched." If the "churched" believers would stop assuming all worth recognising is their own earthly world real fellowship might come to all. The whold body might be built up, might heal itself, might follow Messiah itself. Amen.

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